Questions and Hopes

[QuenoGames]

Hi Dural, it's great to hear you're bringing your mod back, this time for Farming Simulator 25! I've been playing with it forever and I really missed it in FS19 and FS22.

I wanted to ask if you plan to introduce any differences in what a given tractor can pull. What I mean is, currently even a small tractor can plow a field with a pretty large plow, even though it's not able to lift it. Also, will tires affect grip? Right now, whether tires are thin or wide doesn't matter. And do you plan to create any system for tractors getting stuck? Best regards

[quadural]

Hi,

I can say yes to all.
the MR engines takes into account tires width and diameter, rolling resistance, ground type, overloaded tires, etc etc.
so, the harder the condition, the more important become the gears in use (tractor weight, tires, ballast)
you want to get stuck ? easy : try to get by a wet field with an overloaded (no mass limit with MR) "dolly" trailer (trailer with front wheels) featuring road tires. And try this with a tractor equipped with narrow tires :-)
If this is not sufficient : try the same going uphill, and on a ploughed land...
Spoiler : no need to go this far. You will get stuck quite easily with overloaded trailers

To see the difference :
same trailer with wide tires
heavier tractor with big wheels

or also : "normal" trailer (no front wheels) to get some weight of the overloaded trailer on the tractor wheels

base game = you got a fixed speed limit depending on the advertized Hp of the tractor and the advertized required power of the tool.
This is nowhere realistic at all.

With MR = no such limitation. You can attach any tractor to any implement, but good luck pulling an heavy implement with an underpowered or too light tractor, even going downhill.

With MR = you can feel the difference between a nimble Landini 120 and a John Deere 3650 (similar power, but not the same engine and chassis at all)

With MR = draft force depend on tool, speed, soil (it is easier to cultivate over a ploughed or already cultivated field for example. which means that, if your tractor is a little underpowered, you can first shallow cultivate and then deep cultivate)

With MR = try to avoid working field while its wet (the soil is gluing to implements = more draftforce required. Depend on implements of course = you can plough with no draft penalty)

But : I don't think you can stuck a tractor alone, especially if this is a FWA or 4WD one.

Other point : with MR, the claas evion combine is 2WD. (base game engine = everything is 4wd). This is to be considered if harvesting rice or corn in wet condition (hilly field + wet ground + full grain tank = I guess you can experience some motricity difficulties)
But : when the yield is low, or if you don't take the full cutter bar width = more speed possible, like IRL

little tale = one time I had to get back to farm and put the duals on the rear + front weight to finish seeding a field during rain/hail (john deere 3650 + great plains, field 88 on riverbend)

MR, in short = yes, you want this shinny bigger tractor or bigger wheels.

I stop here, because I could spend the whole day describing new conditions and what you could experience while playing. (even if MR engine is still in an alpha stage)

[QuenoGames]

Are the features you described already implemented, or are they still planned for future development? I ask because I've been testing the tractor's performance with a trailer on both narrow and wide tires, and I haven't noticed any difference. Similarly, the small Landini orchard tractor has no problem pulling the John Deere cultivator uphill in a field, even when it's lowered into stubble. What I'm getting at, especially with the new soil deformation, is that when a tractor gets stuck, it digs a hole under its wheels

[quadural]

yes, this is active

I ask because I've been testing the tractor's performance with a trailer on both narrow and wide tires

if the tractor is not struggling, I don't see how you can feel a difference between narrow or wide tire for a trailer (IRL or ingame) => you will consume less fuel on road with narrow tires. And you will get more rolling resistance in field, especially if the tire is overloaded, and much more if the ground is wet.
But you can only feel/see it if your tractor is struggling. Big tractor on small trailer = you will not feel any difference except if you take measures.
You can try with the Farmtech DDK2400 for example : full of wheat or corn = about 28T total
and put the john deere 3650 or case ih farmall to test that (or even the landini 120 if you want). Look at the my speed you can get with narrow or broad wheels on the trailer in a field or on "soft ground".
You can also try the same trailer on ploughed or cultivated land (even with the MT665 you will get stuck in wet condition)
I used the MT665 in december to cart my grain from silos to selling point, and tried to take a shortcut going through an harvested field from a neighbour (parsnips field) = I could not drive for more than 20m in the field. And spent 10min reversing with nearly 100% slipping

Don't try on road or gravel path = you will not see the difference except if really too small a tractor for the trailer (landini 80 + brantner 34090 with full extension and fully filled with grain, someone to test ? But I don't think there are road tires available for this trailer)

the small Landini orchard tractor has no problem pulling the John Deere cultivator uphill in a field, even when it's lowered into stubble

But you should see the difference going downhill compared to uphill ?
the JD cultivator = shallow cultivator (set at something like 7-8cm depth in game). Look at the speed you can achieve with it on flat field (dry, stubble) with the john deere 3650.
IRL, the landini 120 would pull it with no problem in the same condition (attention : this is highly dependant on ground type - who says "clay" ? - and soil moisture)
Of course, if not ballasted, the landi 120 will slip more than the 3650, even at 10kph.
To get a rough idea : when talking of pto HP : proper ballasting =
-> 50kg per hp for high force, low speed work (6-8kph)
-> 45kg per hp for normal work speed (8-10kph)
-> 40kg per hp for "high" speed work (10-12kph)

Landini 120 = a little more than 3T in game.
then, if you put a front ballast and we take into account the weight of the implement on the rear wheels => 4T ?
about 100 PTO HP => 40kg per PTO HP. Not so bad to pull a shallow cultivator at more than 8kph (not optimal, but nothing preventing this tractor to pull this implement)

But : in hard condition (cultivating over ploughed land, wet soil, hills) the landini will reach its limits quicker than the jd3650

What I'm getting at, especially with the new soil deformation, is that when a tractor gets stuck, it digs a hole under its wheels

MR will not feature that. you will get lot of slipping, even not moving at all, but the best you can get under the wheel = the base game soil deformation (15-20cm ?). You will not dig the soil deeply (the new soil deformation is not meant to do that I suppose).
We are far from "mudrunner" or "snowrunner" games. But this is not the point in this game = except when harvesting beets/potatoes, i suppose.

PS : if you really don't feel any difference when playing with MR = you are not playing MR (you have a mod conflict or something else)
=> just by driving over a field instead of the road with a full trailer = you should clearly see/feel the difference with base game engine

[QuenoGames]

Hey, thanks for the reply. I did the trailer test on an asphalt road with a JD 3650 tractor, using narrow, wide, and standard tires with a DDK 2400 trailer. I understand that only machines with the 'MR' designation will work with 'More Realistic,' right? I also tested a Landini 120 tractor with an AgroMasz 5 XL plow, and the tractor couldn't lift the plow. However, in the field, with the plow lowered, it was able to drive even at 4-5 km/h

[quadural]

on asphalt = like IRL, you will not get a big difference between narrow or wide tires. (except at very low speed, when the tire is overwhelmed => less than 3kph, lot of slippage)
This is not like cars : the weight applied to the wheels compared to the horsepower has nothing to compare. (but at very low speed, you can raise full power, which is not possible for a car. Full power for a car = you are already at more than 20-30kph in first gear)

the only way to see a "big" difference on road = reaching the limit. Example : going uphill on the road (steep slope) with the same setup you tried and a full trailer = 100% slippage with narrow wheels and making it to the top with wide tires. But if the trailer is too heavy = you will not make it to the top even with broad tires. (try with canola first, it is lighter than wheat)
test road = riverbend, when going back to the farm from field 90

I understand that only machines with the 'MR' designation will work with 'More Realistic,' right?

wrong : every vehicle has to bear rolling resistance with MR engine.
you can try any trailer for exemple.
But : "MR" converted vehicles can have new features (combine harvesters for example) or behave more realistically than not "MR" ones.
you can even use a non MR implement = to convert the Ford tractors, I tried them with the biggest deep cultivator I found in the base game (18m wide), and even if this is not a "MR" implement, it worked "as intended" (the draftforce is varying depending on the ground type and speed, and wetness too).

Landini 120 tractor with an AgroMasz 5 XL plow, and the tractor couldn't lift the plow. However, in the field, with the plow lowered, it was able to drive even at 4-5 km/h

I think this is normal. At low speed, a plough is not very "hard" to pull.

IRL, with a garden tiller (honda F610 = 140cc engine, 3.6Hp) and a plough (15cm depth), I can work at 3-4kph without putting the engine at max power (higher gear, lower rpm = less than 3hp) => 15-20cm wide (but quickly slip a lot depending on the soil condition. about 200kg total for this setup)

the AgroMasz is working over 2.5m wide in game => if we are talking of the same condition as mine => about 15x more
=> 3T for the pulling vehicle
=> 50 Hp
=> 3kph

IRL, with a john deere 6800 (about the same power compared to the 3650 in game), when ploughing just before the seeder (wheat seeding), usually, I was driving @1200-1400rpm. 5 furrows kverneland plough, opened at 16" wide => working width = about 2 meters. Between 7 and 9kph.

so, I am not really surprised we can pull the AgroMasz with the landini 120 (but with a lot of slipping if we are talking of 4-5kph at full power)
this would be the same IRL = no way to lift that (and it would be far too dangerous to drive with such a far weight for such a small tractor) but possible to pull it with high slippage (easy soil, good grip=no wetness, and not too deep, and flat field)
but who would do that ? there is no point. => high wheel wear, high fuel usage, no way to turn at the end of the field, etc etc

and then, 3-4kph on flat land means even less speed when ploughing going uphill, and no way to pull that if wetness increases.
This is the magic with MR engine : there is no on/off limitation like in base game.
when you don't have enough $$$ to buy a new tractor, you can buy a bigger implement and pull it with your current one, but at the cost of high ballasting, reduced speed and other things related to bad matching of tractor/implement.
You can also work only going downhill :-)
=> base game = same speed uphill and downhill most of the time (especially if the tractor has more HP than required)
=> MR = lot of difference (just try to pull the bredal spreader at full speed going uphill with full tank of lime... lot of HP required with MR, and don't buy the narrow tires for that, this is not realistic and this will be far worse especially on worked ground/wet ground)

[QuenoGames]

Hey, thank you so much for such a comprehensive explanation of everything. It seemed to me that it was much more difficult in FS17 with the MR mod, which is why I was surprised it works this way now. Anyway, I love your mod and can't wait for the final version. Thanks again for your help!

[quadural]

Each MR mod is unique (craft from zero)

MR17 = only MR CVT gear box, and MR engine to deliver forces to the ground
MR25 = all gearboxes possible, but forced to use the base game engine to deliver forces to the ground.

=> I had to make concessions for MR25 to exist.
=> this is far from being perfect, but this is also far more realistic than what the base game engine delivers to us.

[QuenoGames]

Sure, I understand. One last question: will you try to achieve that more difficult level, like it was in FS17, or will it remain as it is currently? For example, the MF 5713 tractor can pull the largest plow in the game, the Kverneland PW 100-12, at 4 km/h on stubble in a flat field. In real life, it wouldn't even be able to budge it. The tractor weighs 4.8 tons, and the plow itself is 7.5 tons. Or perhaps the game engine itself doesn't allow for certain modifications? Of course, such a combination makes no sense in real life; I'm just asking because I'm used to needing a lot of grip and power in FS17 if you wanted to pull some machinery in the field.

[quadural]

I just try it = indeed, there is something wrong here. It seems another bug to fix in base game engine.
The "getPowerMultiplier" call returns 0.6667 for this implement (should be 1, i suppose when the whole plough is working) => instead of getting 66Kn draft force, you get 44Kn, and so, of course, this is a lot easier for the tractor to pull it.

either a bug, or a bad configuration in the xml (groundReferenceNodes part of it)

I recheck = I suppose bad config.
AgroMasz is 2.5m wide => and set to 25 max force
PW 100-12 is 6m wide => should be set to something like 75 (2.4 more width but harder to pull since lesser weight report on the tractor and far more than 2.4x weight). It is set @80 in base game xml, but with a factor of 0.667 while playing. So, we should set it to 110-120 in the xml file to get something "MR"

[QuenoGames]

I wonder if there are more errors or other issues like these. I'm no expert, but I tried to modify FS17 mods myself. I looked at what changes you made in the files and what you wrote, and I managed to adapt quite a few mods to work with your MR mod. Playing without your mod was pointless for me, no joy in the game. Even though English isn't my native language (I'm from Poland), something like 'max force' meant nothing to me. I didn't understand what it changed, so I just typed in a number and tested what happened until I got an effect I liked. And now, when I started this mod for FS25, it seems a bit too easy, especially when I remember the FS17 or FS13 days.

You also mentioned something called 'getPowerMultiplier.' Where is that written – in the game's debug or in the plow's XML – and what does it change?