How to notify about a temporary road, path, street closure as a non-mapper? #13836
Replies: 6 comments 8 replies
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Unfortunately it's only possible by a mapper to set access:conditional tag. |
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Thank you @vshcherb for your response! |
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A note is probably the best option. Alternatively you could see if there's an active forum or mailing list for your part of the world. Have a look under OSM community here https://forum.openstreetmap.org/ |
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Mapping temporary information is discouraged (because some users don't update their map data often or at all). The only possible exception, from what I've read, is using As a non-mapper, the best mechanism is notes. However, keep in mind that you're essentially asking / expecting others (who have their own priorities & resource limitations) to make the changes for you. Much like Wikipedia; if you want to improve something, then learn how and spend the time to do so. A loftier approach, would be to persuade whichever government department is responsible for such temporary closures, to make updating OSM part of their workflow. Longer-term; when a city is fully mapped, then maybe more attention will be given to the likes of roadworks. Bottom-line: if you want to see improvement, then help by contributing. As for notes; ensure that you include as much specific info as possible. Often, when notes are vague, they're more likely to be ignored. StreetComplete can help; it enables attaching photos to notes; so you could take enough to convey all the details:
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Alternatively, you could pay a willing enthusiast to make the changes you desire. |
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Dear @Lee-Carre |
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I know: Support access:conditional, oneway:conditional, maxspeed:practical:conditional restrictions There are certain road closures for some months and this information should be added/mapped, I think. |
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Ah, your ideas mirror my own. That wasn't apparent from your OP. It might have been wise to include such context. However, in that case … Firstly, the distinction must be made between
(Which implies the necessary distinction between OSM & OsmAnd. Better to solve a problem for all of OSM than only one app.) From my own research, having a comparable wish to yours (of OsmAnd auto-routing around roadworks 😃), the first part is mostly settled. The trouble comes with the second part, due to the nature of OSM being very different to that of proprietary map houses. For detail, read my (several) responses in #11409 (since many of the same factors (or underlying principles) apply to both that, and this; all that changes is the type of features / data). At best, an in-app widget would just drop a note. Then (like above) it's down to actual mappers making the requisite change. Same problem (bottleneck), doesn't really solve anything. Instead, you could take on responsibility of such tasks (evidently no-one else is, in your area). Otherwise, it's just a hope that someone else will do the work, instead. A few things too be mindful of:
Much more generally; while I'm all for improvement without undermining what OSM is (i.e. trying to fundamentally change it to be more like some proprietary mega-corp), beyond a point one must accept that a lot of users don't care about their freedom or anything beyond the practical. That's a problem of education. Even then, you won't persuade everyone. I say this from experience; both as an advocate of tech-freedom in general, and from my conversations with various folks while out surveying. Keep in mind, though, that while marking formal & planned road closures may be viable, if you also expect OsmAnd to match proprietary apps with the likes of
then those will likely need a different approach than for geographical data. For example, traffic data is often silently collected by proprietary apps from people using said app for navigation. So, regardless of technicalities, the likes of (opt-in) consent & privacy must be given due consideration. Funding (for hosting of infrastructure, for such en-masse real-time data collection from thousands of users) is then another concern; while proprietary map houses profit from their users, OSM not only receives no revenue from users (donations not withstanding, but they're optional), more users means more cost (think server capacity for serving all the requests in a timely fashion; from what I've read, OSM runs ‘lean’ on capacity, compared to what might be sensible for a comparable operation by a proprietary house; consider that Plus, all this would have to be in a way that's long-term sustainable. That's no small challenge. Software / datasets aren't magic. This goes for the above, and what's to follow. If taking on the responsibility (for your area) is daunting
Now that I've covered the general strokes, on to some specifics:
Several things to unpack & address, here. Firstly, the bar is already pretty low; OSM Notes. Don't even need an account to open a note; can be anonymous. As I advocated in #11409, there is merit in some kind of entry exam. If users aren't interested enough to discover Notes, then contributing isn't for them. Again, OSM doesn't have an army of droids to make changes for users based on reports. This is an example of what I meant by changing fundamentals (for the worse); OSM being open and a community are great strengths. It's not some ‘product’ to get-rich-quick. Your statement (that I quoted) also assumes that mere reporting will lead to speedy resolution. Not at all. Again, volunteers with their own priorities & interests. There's plenty of notes which remain open for years. Else, some lack sufficient info for anyone but a surveyor to solve. Others are either irrelevant or bizarre; imagine a note on open water, which simply read “house”. That's probably just gonna be closed as spam / noise / erroneous. Even with quality notes crafted carefully by the author; maybe solving it is a lot of work. So, it's often skipped for simpler ones. Consider, also, that without some mechanism to prevent it (of which I have no idea how it would work), until the requested change is implemented & distributed, users will continue to drop duplicate notes about the same problem. I've seen this happen, with other features.
The easy way is via notes. But, opening a note doesn't imply anything else (such as even when it might be looked at). The more experienced a mapper is, the more types of work he's capable of. I suggest changing your goal to become a mapper capable of making the changes you wish to see. Be that advanced, or whatever you wish to call it. That you (and anyone else) is free & able to edit OSM is its primary strength. Aside from benefitting others, it's also a stimulating discipline.
Road closures are detailed changes. Why that detail over anything else? There are areas which are very poorly mapped. I've already mentioned that in my own area, we lack GNSS traces, most building, and many minor roads (think of housing estates). Everyone wants their favourite features prioritised. Who decides what is top priority? This, again, is the beauty of a system open to all; you decide what you work on (just as others do). As mentioned, many mappers work on particular types of features. Some may have no experience with detailed highway work. Why should any individual mapper work on what you want, before his own interests (keep in mind that many work on mapping humanitarian-aid areas, such as those facing disasters, or war, in order to help locals & organisations there to helptgd locals; in such cases, people's lives are at stake, just to put things in perspective)? There are businesses which have added a note requesting to be mapped, which are already several years old. I also have a lot of Keep in mind that I'm also not overly interested in any of those categories. I'd rather be mapping the likes of infrastructure. But, I recognise that some things are more important, and choose to focus on them first. Given time (again, as lone surveyor on my island), I'll get around to the nice-to-have features. So, while roadworks would ad beneficial to map, and I agree with the outcome you describe (of apps having detailed info for routing, to offload that whole task funny drivers), and it's something I've researched how to map, they're simply not a priority compared to so much else. It's not because I, or others, think it unworthy or pointless; but that there's plenty of more basic features to map, first. A road needs to exist (on the map), before it can be tagged as closed. An example I focus on (until it actually opens) is a new road in town, currently under construction. I'm trying to catch it very shortly after it's opened to the public, or ideally when it's being opened. So, I check every few days (it's already overdue it's completion date, so Real Soon Now™). Besides general accuracy & freshness (as for any feature), it's to serve as a pedestrian shortcut. Thus, will affect routing (especially for those on foot). Another feature I give attention to, during surveying sessions, is footpaths (shortcuts for pedestrians). Often not obvious on imagery, and some are well-hidden (so have to go looking for them). So, roadworks? Maybe later. Plus; let's imagine that (somehow, magically) everything is added, and even that it's recently updated / checked. How am I, alone, supposed to keep up with all the many various road closures going on (even on a small island)? So, then, it becomes; which closures do I tackle first? I can't do them all at once. Why one ever another (even if I put any weight on the demands of non-mapper users)? Each mapper has only finite resources (including time). If someone's got a good argument (not simply their personal preference or what directly benefits them) as to why I should change my priorities, then I'll consider it. Otherwise, I'll continue as I see fit.
Notifying is easy (OSM Notes), what's challenging is editing (accurately; sometimes I've found real head-scratchers: ‘how the hell do I map / tag this?!’). But, to compare, think how long it takes to make a film, versus how long to watch it. Having changes made; relatively easy;
Again, what seems to be expected is for others (unpaid volunteers) to do the desired work, promptly, as a priority.
In either of those cases, no need to notify anyone else. This same principle / concept applies on Wikipedia; when merely asking others to make changes, they may never happen (or take a long time). Because editors are busy with their own changes. There's always demand for improvement. To meet it (in a timely fashion) requires an increase in the count of proficient contributors. One reason why I do surveying, is that its sorely needed. All other locals are armchair mappers. Besides helping the cause, contributing will give one by appreciation of quite how much is involved and some of the challenges.
While proprietary maps may compete with OSM, OSM doesn't compete with them. OSM isn't trying to achieve monopoly, or other profit-centric goals. It's primary goal isn't popularity, but freedom. To try to apply such narrow models & thinking to a public-interest project (since you claim to be an advocate of them) is to miss important fundamentals, and neglect the very nature of such projects. Learn the early history of OSM; it started as a response to Ordinance Survey (which is tax-funded) forbidding the public from using the very data which they've already paid for. Being allowed to view a map doesn't count as (fully) using the data; correcting it, updating it, adding to it, repurposing it, sharing it, and so on. With that out of the way; to address your ‘question’. I don't see how it could be changed without fundamentally altering the nature of OSM for the worse. That seems undesirable; undermining OSM's core virtues. The proprietary players aren't a concern; they'll eventually lose (as tends to happen when proprietary tries to compete against libre). Think about Google trying to get users to submit updates for them. Because Google has no hope of keeping up with a changing world. Furthermore, OSM (& OsmAnd) is already widely used. It's certainly the ‘biggest’ in terms of freedom, and importance. OSM has something which proprietary players will never have; enduring respect for user-freedoms, and (as a result) a large & growing number of dedicated contributors. Even if OSM weren't so wide-spread (like in the early days); well, just keep working on it. The only reason why well-known names (Tom Tom, Facebook, Apple) are paying attention and starting to use OSM is because it's in their self-interest to (not because they have hearts of gold and have suddenly seen the light), and because much of the hard work has already been done (to produce a usable map). So, they're just jumping on the bandwagon. Not important. Ignore them; improve OSM for its own sake (as if it were a small hobby project). Focus on preserving freedom, quality, the community collaboration, and the other attributes which made OSM virtuous. If you still prefer to think in terms of competition & combat, then read Sun Tzo's Art of War. |
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This would be a great idea! As far as I read in the newspaper the government department informed the big map app developer about the closures. Could there be a place for governments to easily inform OSM? |
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Well, there's a few differences. With proprietary maps, all the transport / infrastructure department can do is inform / notify. However, I would hope that they publish updated info, which anyone could check, regardless (for budding enthusiasts to use). Plus, for OSM, being a community, who or how, exactly, should they notify? With proprietary maps, that's much simpler. However, with OSM, government agencies can do more than notify (which merely places the burden on volunteers). My point was that they could make it part of the procedures to have an employee sit down with editing software, and edit the map data themselves (again, like Wikipedia). A first step, though, would be to ensure that your public servants are at least publishing relevant data (& in a timely fashion). That way, you or other mappers can take on the task of applying it to OSM data. The only caveat would be copyright. Unless you're gonna survey each site, you'd have to copy from the published data. So, the license applied to the roadworks (or whatever) data must be compatible with OSM, or an explicit (written) waiver / permission must be granted. Unless you're somewhere tiny, or very backward (which sounds like it isn't the case, for you), then your government likely does have that data in GIS format(s) already, even if they don't yet publish it. They'll need it to help keep themselves organised. Ultimately; be the change that you want to see in the (world|map). |
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I will do that :).
I will look into this. Some links for others who would like to join: |
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How would someone easily find an enthusiast? As written above, most people would probably not need the temporary map change for themselves but would like to contribute to the community but don't know how to change OSM by themselves. If there is a way to do this without much hassle and if these notifications/notes could be prioritised (e.g. relevant for navigation), this would be great. |
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There's many of them on OSM. Perhaps post in the forum. Else, ask on the help site how best to go about advertising your offer. Don't forget to donate to the OSM project itself; hosting costs money.
Well, there's a whole wiki of documentation. Start with the basics. Expend from there. Many mappers (myself included) learned this way.
Learning anything (let alone mastering it; which takes ~10,000 hours), and doing quality work, always takes dedication & time. There is no shortcut. Those who claim otherwise are either charlatans or trying to sell you something.
See above; why would / should they be (above anything else)? If you want them implemented, then contribute. Making demands of volunteers probably won't lead anywhere. Everyone's got shit to do. |
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Hi @Lee-Carre |
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What is the best way to inform mappers or OsmAnd developers about a temporary road, path, street closure as a non-mapper?
From my experience notes about closed roads on OpenStreetMap often don't translate into real information that can be picked up by OSM navigation apps like OsmAnd or Magic Earth.
Thanks for any help!
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